Also, you bring up Eric Garner, a tragic and preventable death. If we want to break these cases down and have in depth discussions about them, I am totally fine with that.
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Kays Krew 3
Zimmerman is going to be the 3rd party and cops are all arsonist and can burn one article of Nike clothing per night phase.
LOL
G
On a more serious note I think we all can agree that police brutality is an issue, but statistically the rates are way down from what they were in the 80's and 90's. So much of this has to do with the preponderance of video technology nowadays and the media's ability to shine a almost ridiculous amount of light onto the issue. I mean take the case of Mike Brown CNN covered that shit from Ferguson nonstop for what a week or 2 straight? They made it seem like this was Rodney King 2 the redux. I think a lot of the cases are completely blown out of proportion and manipulated to a political bias either left leaning or right leaning. I can remember watching CNN in Ferguson while people were looting and burning down buildings and they are talking about how this is an expression of their inequality and that oh it's not the people from the community doing this it's outsiders. Bull fucking shit I know how a mob mentality works and the second people think authority is out of the picture morality goes out the window. It's ethics 101 mores vs laws.
What i'm saying is I think the coverage of this is completely overblown and it's not even a political discussion anymore it's just a lynchpin left leaning and right leaning news can throw their hat on to garner ratings. You get one narrative where every cop is out there just looking for the part of their shift where they can go beat black people and the other narrative is that all these people are just ghetto anarchists looking to kill every pig. Where's the middle ground?
What i'm saying is I think the coverage of this is completely overblown and it's not even a political discussion anymore it's just a lynchpin left leaning and right leaning news can throw their hat on to garner ratings. You get one narrative where every cop is out there just looking for the part of their shift where they can go beat black people and the other narrative is that all these people are just ghetto anarchists looking to kill every pig. Where's the middle ground?
Z
This article just happened to pop up on my Facebook page.... Facebook and their algorithms....
I encourage you to read it. The article is based upon officer involved shooting data published by the Washington Post, a typically centrist (or slightly left leaning) publication. Within the article, it links to the Washington Post data as well if you would like to review that.
Some interesting key points from the Washington Post:
987 people were shot and killed by police in 2017.
About 50% of those killed by police were white.
20% of those killed by police were black.
25% of the shootings involved people with a mental disorder.
60% of those killed by police were armed with a gun.
Less than 10% were considered unarmed (the article I am linking below pays particular attention to the killings of unarmed individuals)
Read the data for more information.
http://lawofficer.com/exclusive/unarmed/
EDIT: Statement added below.
According to the FBI, in 2016, 57,180 officers were assaulted with hands, fists, guns, knives and other weapons, in the line of duty. If I did my math right, on average, an on-duty police officer is assaulted every 9 minutes.
But again, the police are the problem.
I encourage you to read it. The article is based upon officer involved shooting data published by the Washington Post, a typically centrist (or slightly left leaning) publication. Within the article, it links to the Washington Post data as well if you would like to review that.
Some interesting key points from the Washington Post:
987 people were shot and killed by police in 2017.
About 50% of those killed by police were white.
20% of those killed by police were black.
25% of the shootings involved people with a mental disorder.
60% of those killed by police were armed with a gun.
Less than 10% were considered unarmed (the article I am linking below pays particular attention to the killings of unarmed individuals)
Read the data for more information.
http://lawofficer.com/exclusive/unarmed/
EDIT: Statement added below.
According to the FBI, in 2016, 57,180 officers were assaulted with hands, fists, guns, knives and other weapons, in the line of duty. If I did my math right, on average, an on-duty police officer is assaulted every 9 minutes.
But again, the police are the problem.
Edited Sep 8, 2018
D
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Kays Krew 3 CO
The issue is people are trying to be heard or seem correct to the worst community on the internet. Congrats you got worked up and your opinion is wrong gg no re
E
OP
So I can't help it. Go figure.
But let me just chime in with one more serious post.
The anger that's been brewing the last several years over some of these instances is more due to the fact at the lack of perceived justice against some of these cops and what not.
And look, I'm no expert on most of these unfortunate incidents.
But when a police officer shoots a 12-year old boy after being on the scene for 2 seconds, and does not get punished, there is going to be a lot of outrage.
How did George Zimmerman not get punished in the Trayvon Martin murder? I know he's not a cop, but I feel like that murder was the thing that really got this started.
Eric Garner was strangled to death in the middle of the sidewalk. No punishment for any of those officers. Ya, he was resisting arrest at first, but there were like 10 cops there. Did they really have to kill him? They couldn't stop strangling him?
The problem is definitely amplified by cell phone videos and 24/7 news. But when people see harmless people murdered and their murderers get away with paid vacation as their punishment, people are going to be pissed off.
I believe the Ferguson riots came after no punishment for those cops involved right?
Whether or not it is true, millions of people in this country see the system as extremely flawed and not fair.
But let me just chime in with one more serious post.
The anger that's been brewing the last several years over some of these instances is more due to the fact at the lack of perceived justice against some of these cops and what not.
And look, I'm no expert on most of these unfortunate incidents.
But when a police officer shoots a 12-year old boy after being on the scene for 2 seconds, and does not get punished, there is going to be a lot of outrage.
How did George Zimmerman not get punished in the Trayvon Martin murder? I know he's not a cop, but I feel like that murder was the thing that really got this started.
Eric Garner was strangled to death in the middle of the sidewalk. No punishment for any of those officers. Ya, he was resisting arrest at first, but there were like 10 cops there. Did they really have to kill him? They couldn't stop strangling him?
The problem is definitely amplified by cell phone videos and 24/7 news. But when people see harmless people murdered and their murderers get away with paid vacation as their punishment, people are going to be pissed off.
I believe the Ferguson riots came after no punishment for those cops involved right?
Whether or not it is true, millions of people in this country see the system as extremely flawed and not fair.
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Kays Krew 3
A white dude just got shot 6 times in his house by two police officers here. He was a suspect in an armed robbery case and when questioned he ran into his house where the officers followed and killed him. They later said he was wielding a machete and telling them to shoot him.
Z
So I can't help it. Go figure.
But let me just chime in with one more serious post.
The anger that's been brewing the last several years over some of these instances is more due to the fact at the lack of perceived justice against some of these cops and what not.
And look, I'm no expert ...
I appreciate an actual serious post that expresses questions and statements and I will respond in a way I hope sheds light on these cases and my opinions about these cases and the overall discussion.
I agree that there is a lack of perceived justice against some of the cops. But I think one of the major issues that exist is a lack of understanding of the system. When cops are not arrested and charged for killing someone, that is because a jury decided that. Not a prosecutor or a judge or chief or a sheriff etc. A jury reviews the investigation and evidence and declines to charge or moves forward with a charge. No one else but a jury and no one individual is making that decision.
To address the first case you mention:
The shooting of Tamir Rice is tragic and having the opportunity to Monday morning quarterback (something the officers on scenes can't do), I would have done things so much different. If you read into this case, a caller calls 911 to advise that there was a male in the park pointing a gun at people.
The caller also advises that the male is possibly a juvenile and the gun is possibly fake. HOWEVER, this information was not relayed to responding officers by dispatch (unknown reason why). They arrived on scene with only the knowledge of there being a male in the park pointing a gun at people. Additionally, what was learned to be a replica firearm (airsoft) gun for whatever reason did not have the orange safety tip at the end of the barrel showing it is not a real gun. The police arrive on scene with the limited knowledge they have to find someone pulling a gun from their waist after giving commands to show hands and comply. This led to officers firing twice and striking Tamir once.
The details of the case are what led to the officers not being formally charged with a crime. Again this is tragic AND could have been avoided and this is what I meant by Monday morning quarterbacking.
I have responded to countless calls regarding people with guns, shooting guns, pointing guns at people, etc. When you respond to matters like that (and in reality, most matters) you approach in your car and or on foot from a tactical advantage. Pulling your car right up next to a suspect is not what you do. That is a good way to put yourself in a shit situation or get yourself hurt. Had the officers not pulled their car up right next to the suspect (at the time of the response, Tamir was considered a suspect), this outcome could potentially have been different. However, them pulling their car up in a non-tactically sound manner does not prove any intent that the officers intended on killing Tamir and obviously does not prove any intent they killed him because he is black. It shows there is a training deficiency on how officers should physically and tactically respond to disturbance or weapons related calls.
To address the second case:
I really hate this case. In my current position, I meet with dozens of neighborhood homeowner's associations and civic associations every couple months. I always discourage the creation of formal neighborhood watches because you see people getting involved in things they shouldn't be involved in, beyond calling the police and reporting activity. While none of us will never actually know what took place between Zimmerman and Martin, we can only look to the outcome of the trial and the outcome of the democrat led U.S. Attorney General's Office (DOJ). Zimmerman was acquitted during trial and the DOJ's investigation into the case was closed and could not prove any wrongdoing by Zimmerman.
In this case, the local police agency, the local prosecutor, the state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI and the DOJ all conducted separate investigations into this case. No additional charges were ever filed on Zimmerman. When there are three different (and completely separate) levels of government investigating the case and all reach the same or similar conclusion, I tend to lend merit to the outcome.
Additionally, as you mentioned, Zimmerman wasn't a cop and I think it would be unfair for law enforcement to be negatively judged based upon the actions of an overzealous civilian neighborhood watchman.
To address the third case:
I really dislike the Eric Garner case because this is another preventable death (preventable by Garner himself and preventable by the police). But again, it is also easier to Monday morning quarterback, something cops on the scenes cannot do. Police received a call for service about a man illegally (due to locally approved city ordinances) selling individual cigarettes outside of a store. A lot of the outrage that exists is because people say Garner was killed over cigarettes, or Garner was being harassed by police. That is obviously not the case. Correlation does not prove causation. With the exception of minor traffic violations where police are allotted some discretion, cops have the obligation to enforce the law. They don't make the law but they must enforce it. Especially in cases like this, where they are responding to a call for service generated by a citizen making a complaint about a violation of a city ordinance (law).
I say this case is preventable because had Garner complied when confronted, none of this would have happened (but somehow, only the police are blamed for the escalation of force). Garner is a massive man that was actively (but not aggressively) resisting. Officers requested and demanded compliance multiples times. In review of the video the officer that applied the choke hold appears to try to bring him to the ground with the hold. While choke holds are typically not authorized by department policies (unless deadly force is necessary), I do see the officers struggling to grab Garner's arms, waist, or anything else due to his mere size, in an effort to get him to the ground or get his hands behind his back.
As a Monday morning quarterback, I typically have of a rule of thumb that I won't go "hands on" with someone that is 2-3 times my size. I will use an alternative less than lethal intermediate weapon such as a Taser or pepper spray in an attempt to gain compliance because I know if I go hands on, I may have to use extreme methods in order to get compliance. I think that is what happened in this case.
Some would argue that Taser's are less effective against those with higher body fat percentages (which is true) as to why a Taser was not used, but I still think it would have been a viable option. Hell, most times the presentation of the Taser alone can gain compliance.
I think the reason this officer was cleared by local/state prosecutors and future U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch's U.S. Attorney's Office in NY is because you cannot prove the officers actions were done with the intent to kill Garner or to kill Garner because of his race. Additionally, contributing factors to his death, according to the medical examiner, was cardiac arrest due to obesity, asthma and cardiovascular disease.
Again this is another tragic death but also a preventable death - from both sides.
Finally to address your Ferguson statements, the rioting happened before and after the police officer was cleared of wrong doing. The riots started significantly before the clearing of the officer because there were lies being spread about Michael Brown telling the officers "my hands are up, don't shoot". This led to mass hysteria in the rioting, led to members of congress imitating hands up don't shoot and then it eventually is learned, that hands up don't shoot didn't happen, and it was a lie.
You also said you believe the Ferguson riots came after no punishment for the cops involved....is rioting ever okay? I certainly don't think so.
One more thing I want to bring up and I think the Eric Garner case is a perfect example of this. People like Kaepernick are sharing the idea that law enforcement is killing innocent minorities and or leaving them to die in the streets. As has been discussed on multiple occasions in this thread, that idea is not factually accurate. Therefore, spreading the idea that police cannot be trusted, police are corrupt and police are brutal racists, only further worsening the relationship between police and minorities.
If people don't trust the police or fear the police, they run, they resist, they fight. When people run, resist and fight, police use of force is escalated because it has to be escalated. So why do people try to spread the message that police should not be trusted, police are hunting black people, police are racists? They are hurting the minority community by doing that.
Eric Garner should not be dead. I will always say that. Police could have found alternative ways of gaining compliance (Monday morning quarterbacking). But if Garner didn't resist and complied with the officers lawful action, he would have seen his day in court to tell his side of the story and he would still be alive today.
I agree that there is a lack of perceived justice against some of the cops. But I think one of the major issues that exist is a lack of understanding of the system. When cops are not arrested and charged for killing someone, that is because a jury decided that. Not a prosecutor or a judge or chief or a sheriff etc. A jury reviews the investigation and evidence and declines to charge or moves forward with a charge. No one else but a jury and no one individual is making that decision.
To address the first case you mention:
The shooting of Tamir Rice is tragic and having the opportunity to Monday morning quarterback (something the officers on scenes can't do), I would have done things so much different. If you read into this case, a caller calls 911 to advise that there was a male in the park pointing a gun at people.
The caller also advises that the male is possibly a juvenile and the gun is possibly fake. HOWEVER, this information was not relayed to responding officers by dispatch (unknown reason why). They arrived on scene with only the knowledge of there being a male in the park pointing a gun at people. Additionally, what was learned to be a replica firearm (airsoft) gun for whatever reason did not have the orange safety tip at the end of the barrel showing it is not a real gun. The police arrive on scene with the limited knowledge they have to find someone pulling a gun from their waist after giving commands to show hands and comply. This led to officers firing twice and striking Tamir once.
The details of the case are what led to the officers not being formally charged with a crime. Again this is tragic AND could have been avoided and this is what I meant by Monday morning quarterbacking.
I have responded to countless calls regarding people with guns, shooting guns, pointing guns at people, etc. When you respond to matters like that (and in reality, most matters) you approach in your car and or on foot from a tactical advantage. Pulling your car right up next to a suspect is not what you do. That is a good way to put yourself in a shit situation or get yourself hurt. Had the officers not pulled their car up right next to the suspect (at the time of the response, Tamir was considered a suspect), this outcome could potentially have been different. However, them pulling their car up in a non-tactically sound manner does not prove any intent that the officers intended on killing Tamir and obviously does not prove any intent they killed him because he is black. It shows there is a training deficiency on how officers should physically and tactically respond to disturbance or weapons related calls.
To address the second case:
I really hate this case. In my current position, I meet with dozens of neighborhood homeowner's associations and civic associations every couple months. I always discourage the creation of formal neighborhood watches because you see people getting involved in things they shouldn't be involved in, beyond calling the police and reporting activity. While none of us will never actually know what took place between Zimmerman and Martin, we can only look to the outcome of the trial and the outcome of the democrat led U.S. Attorney General's Office (DOJ). Zimmerman was acquitted during trial and the DOJ's investigation into the case was closed and could not prove any wrongdoing by Zimmerman.
In this case, the local police agency, the local prosecutor, the state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI and the DOJ all conducted separate investigations into this case. No additional charges were ever filed on Zimmerman. When there are three different (and completely separate) levels of government investigating the case and all reach the same or similar conclusion, I tend to lend merit to the outcome.
Additionally, as you mentioned, Zimmerman wasn't a cop and I think it would be unfair for law enforcement to be negatively judged based upon the actions of an overzealous civilian neighborhood watchman.
To address the third case:
I really dislike the Eric Garner case because this is another preventable death (preventable by Garner himself and preventable by the police). But again, it is also easier to Monday morning quarterback, something cops on the scenes cannot do. Police received a call for service about a man illegally (due to locally approved city ordinances) selling individual cigarettes outside of a store. A lot of the outrage that exists is because people say Garner was killed over cigarettes, or Garner was being harassed by police. That is obviously not the case. Correlation does not prove causation. With the exception of minor traffic violations where police are allotted some discretion, cops have the obligation to enforce the law. They don't make the law but they must enforce it. Especially in cases like this, where they are responding to a call for service generated by a citizen making a complaint about a violation of a city ordinance (law).
I say this case is preventable because had Garner complied when confronted, none of this would have happened (but somehow, only the police are blamed for the escalation of force). Garner is a massive man that was actively (but not aggressively) resisting. Officers requested and demanded compliance multiples times. In review of the video the officer that applied the choke hold appears to try to bring him to the ground with the hold. While choke holds are typically not authorized by department policies (unless deadly force is necessary), I do see the officers struggling to grab Garner's arms, waist, or anything else due to his mere size, in an effort to get him to the ground or get his hands behind his back.
As a Monday morning quarterback, I typically have of a rule of thumb that I won't go "hands on" with someone that is 2-3 times my size. I will use an alternative less than lethal intermediate weapon such as a Taser or pepper spray in an attempt to gain compliance because I know if I go hands on, I may have to use extreme methods in order to get compliance. I think that is what happened in this case.
Some would argue that Taser's are less effective against those with higher body fat percentages (which is true) as to why a Taser was not used, but I still think it would have been a viable option. Hell, most times the presentation of the Taser alone can gain compliance.
I think the reason this officer was cleared by local/state prosecutors and future U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch's U.S. Attorney's Office in NY is because you cannot prove the officers actions were done with the intent to kill Garner or to kill Garner because of his race. Additionally, contributing factors to his death, according to the medical examiner, was cardiac arrest due to obesity, asthma and cardiovascular disease.
Again this is another tragic death but also a preventable death - from both sides.
Finally to address your Ferguson statements, the rioting happened before and after the police officer was cleared of wrong doing. The riots started significantly before the clearing of the officer because there were lies being spread about Michael Brown telling the officers "my hands are up, don't shoot". This led to mass hysteria in the rioting, led to members of congress imitating hands up don't shoot and then it eventually is learned, that hands up don't shoot didn't happen, and it was a lie.
You also said you believe the Ferguson riots came after no punishment for the cops involved....is rioting ever okay? I certainly don't think so.
One more thing I want to bring up and I think the Eric Garner case is a perfect example of this. People like Kaepernick are sharing the idea that law enforcement is killing innocent minorities and or leaving them to die in the streets. As has been discussed on multiple occasions in this thread, that idea is not factually accurate. Therefore, spreading the idea that police cannot be trusted, police are corrupt and police are brutal racists, only further worsening the relationship between police and minorities.
If people don't trust the police or fear the police, they run, they resist, they fight. When people run, resist and fight, police use of force is escalated because it has to be escalated. So why do people try to spread the message that police should not be trusted, police are hunting black people, police are racists? They are hurting the minority community by doing that.
Eric Garner should not be dead. I will always say that. Police could have found alternative ways of gaining compliance (Monday morning quarterbacking). But if Garner didn't resist and complied with the officers lawful action, he would have seen his day in court to tell his side of the story and he would still be alive today.
Z
A white dude just got shot 6 times in his house by two police officers here. He was a suspect in an armed robbery case and when questioned he ran into his house where the officers followed and killed him. They later said he was wielding a machete and telling them to shoot him.
Is there a point to this story?
Z
And I fully expect some real punishment in the Botham Jean murder that just recently happened, but on the off chance there isn't...
Expect some massive protests again.
I expect punishment as well. I watched the Dallas PD Chief's press conference earlier. This female officer really fucked up. This is a unique situation because the shooter is a police officer, in uniform, but they were not acting in their official police capacity. Therefore this should be treated differently than an officer involved shooting, which is something that takes place within the actual scope of their duties.
1) IDK how you walk into the wrong residence, I am concerned there could be extenuating circumstances (maybe drugs or alcohol in her system, idk, not going to speculate further on that)
2) The female has not been formally interviewed yet so the police are getting a warrant out for her arrest for manslaughter. It will be interesting to hear her side of the story.
3) As I mentioned, she is being arrested for manslaughter. Manslaughter in Texas basically means that due to reckless behavior, a homicide was committed. There is no requirement for intentionally or knowingly committing the homicide (that is murder). I could see her being charged with Manslaughter but eventually pleading to or being found guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide, which is one step lower than Manslaughter and lowest form of criminal homicide in Texas.
However, while we can speculate some, there are still a lot of facts that need to come out.
1) IDK how you walk into the wrong residence, I am concerned there could be extenuating circumstances (maybe drugs or alcohol in her system, idk, not going to speculate further on that)
2) The female has not been formally interviewed yet so the police are getting a warrant out for her arrest for manslaughter. It will be interesting to hear her side of the story.
3) As I mentioned, she is being arrested for manslaughter. Manslaughter in Texas basically means that due to reckless behavior, a homicide was committed. There is no requirement for intentionally or knowingly committing the homicide (that is murder). I could see her being charged with Manslaughter but eventually pleading to or being found guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide, which is one step lower than Manslaughter and lowest form of criminal homicide in Texas.
However, while we can speculate some, there are still a lot of facts that need to come out.
D
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Kays Krew 3 CO
zmn hijacking threads, posts, zones to get people to do what he wants. What will you say next OvD in ctfpl?
S
foolish waste of time stop it, go watch dancing with the stars ya nancies
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Kays Krew 3
Is there a point to this story?
Yea sometimes police have to make decisions on the fly in order to save their lives. I'm not a cop hater like you think. I just see some of the faults in the system put in place that need to be changed. And I'm glad to hear you are one of the good apples.
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