Kap wasn't really as bad as a lot of people want to make him out to be.

His last season in the NFL he completed 60% of his passes, had a 4-1 TD-INT ratio, and was going for almost 240 total yards per game.

There's what? 3 QBs per team? 32 teams? About 100 QBs then. He's easily better than 75 of them I bet you.

But now he's being punished by the NFL worse than Michael Vick because he was trying to speak for social justice for young African-American men.

And look, I understand some people think it isn't a problem or it is grossly over exaggerated, but for every one of you, there is a person who agrees there is a problem in this country with social justice for minorities.

I tend to agree with Sinn over there in that it is more of a money problem. But minorities tend to have an uphill battle in regards to acquiring said money. So they have higher rates of poverty and they do end up abused by the justice system at higher rates subsequently.

And most cops are good people. But even though the racist or corrupt cops (however you want to label them) make up a small percentage, the problem then becomes the other 98% or however many cops ignore the problems with those 2%.

And don't even get me started on the rampant growth of for profit prisons in this country...

/rant

No he wasn't as bad as people make him out to be but he also was a shadow of his former self and at the end of the day the NFL is a business and as a business owner do you want a guy who isn't the skilled player he once was on your team when it's going to cost you money? That's where the collusion case falls apart unless these idiots were dumb enough to have an agreement to blackball him.

Now as for the for the rest of what you wrote everything starts and stops with money. Yes minorities have a harder climb because up until I suppose you could make the argument this country was inherently racist until the 1970s like systemically racist. That system isn't in place anymore but it also means Anglo Saxons have had a good 200 year start on almost every other minority including white Catholic europeans.I

I think a lot of the problems with police break down to 2 core issues and follow me for a second there because this is something that is hardly ever addressed.

Firstly police now a days are given more means of non deadly force such as tasers. This may sound like a good thing but I think we've lost a lot of the traditional tactics of de-escalation and substituted them for a strategy of trying to talk a person down and if that doesn't work just tase them. Back before that you had 2 options as a cop if you had to use force either go in with a baton and beat the person into submission and that's never a sure bet you aren't going to get your ass kicked in the process or shoot the person and deal with everything that comes with that. With having tasers so predominant now it leads to a police force that is more likely to use a weapon instead of trying to talk someone down.

The second is an easy fix and that's to have officers rotate shifts. I could be wrong on this but from my dealings with cops in a previous job i had it was always the same officers handling the same area. This leads into my issue with people getting the view that the entire area is filled with the absolute garbage of humanity and it leads to cases where police are frankly sick of seeing the same shit day in and day out and are more likely to use deadly force. I'm not advising detectives and such be rotated just your average patrolman should be rotated around so they aren't mired in an area over and over again.

<i>Throwing away apparel because you don't like their spokesman is utterly ridiculous. Donate the shoes/tshirts to homeless veterans that people seem to care so much about but do nothing about at all. To be so close minded that you don't support a company for putting a person on their add who was holding a peaceful protest shows how narrow-minded this country really can be.
-Black</i>

The fact that you automatically assume, with zero basis of fact, that I do nothing to support veterans is completely uncalled for and not true. You also talk about being narrow-minded because I have an issue with Kaepernick being on the Nike ad. You also say that it is ridiculous that I throw away my Nike stuff. Me throwing away my Nike stuff is my version of a peaceful protest but somehow that is not acceptable to you; in fact, it's ridiculous to you. So how is Kaepernick's peaceful protest okay but mine is ridiculous? So, who exactly is narrow-minded?

<i>Again nobody is protesting the country, the flag, veterans, or any other branch of military/law enforcement. It was a peaceful protest to bring attention to the fact that black youths are being imprisoned and murdered by police officers at an alarming rate, furthermore those imprisoning and murdering are not being held accountable for their actions.
-Black</i>

As reported by an NFL report on August 27, 2016:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game.

Yes he was protesting the flag and the country. Additionally, amid his protesting, he was wearing socks with cops portrayed as pigs. So don't sit here and say that he was not protesting the country, flag and law enforcement. I can appreciate the fact that he protested peacefully but that doesn't mean his protest should be applauded. Also, nothing in the constitution says I, as an individual, must accept or support a protest. I am allowed to disagree and express myself when I believe a protest is based off of exaggerated, inaccurate or in some cases, completely false information.

If you want to have a serious conversation about crime rates, imprisonment rates, use of force incidents or in-custody deaths in general or specifically in regard to minorities I am more than happy to have that conversation. Has there been tragic incidents involving police misconduct? Absolutely, no denying it. For those of you know who don't know shit about police work, do you know who hates bad cops the most? All other cops. Cops that commit crimes should be punished just like anyone else that commits crimes.

But there is also no denying that several of the incidents that the media blasted 24/7, such as Ferguson, was not based on facts and even when things were proven to support the justified shooting, the facts didn't matter. People wanted to (and did) protest regardless of the fact that Michael Brown was in the wrong.

As someone who works with thousands of other law enforcement officers, just in my county alone, I see the tremendous amount of good that is done every single day. And because there are 10-15 incidents over a two year span that are either terrible or questionable at best, a brutal and racist label on police is applied to all of law enforcement? That is bullshit. Those incidents that took place are a problem and should be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. But those incidents don't represent the <b>millions</b> of normal and positive interactions the 800,000 plus law enforcement officers have with the public <b>every day</b>. That is the main reason I do not support his protest. It is not based on facts.

<i>He lead his team to the NFC champ game and a superbowl in back to back years, I don't know how that's considered mediocre, no he wasn't aaron rodgers or Tom Brady, but he was a winner and he certainly was in the top 15 qbs in the league. He was also way better than most of the starters in the past few seasons that could have signed him. He currently has a collusion suit against the NFL and it's owners for not wanting to sign him for peaceful protest, which is the same as not hiring someone because they're christian, or not christian. Which is illegal in every other job in the US.
-Black</i>

So maybe I didn't describe his talent as accurate as it may have been towards the first half or two-thirds of his career but he was nothing special towards the end of his career. That is also not the point. He protested, chose free agency and no one signed him. He then stated that he would stand for the anthem, as I previously mentioned, but the damage was already done. It wasn't until after that did he begin to pursue collusion efforts against the NFL.

You are also completely wrong about him not being hired due to peaceful protests and comparing that to not being hired for discriminatory practices such as religion. Kaepernick was protesting and expressing himself, on the job, working for a private sector employer. Freedom of expression and protesting cannot be restricted by the government but it can be restricted by an employer and a lot of times restrictions like that exist within the conditions of employment.

Kaepernick was protesting the flag, government, police, country, w/e you want to call it, on the NFL and the 49er's time. Not his own time. That is not protected actions by the US Constitution. Not to mention, I also believe that standing for the national anthem was required by NFL rules that Kaepernick was openly violating as well.

So Kaepernick began to protest based mostly on inaccurate information, doing so while on the job and working for a private sector employer, while violating NFL rules for not standing, voluntarily opted for free agency, didn't get signed, back tracks from his alleged social justice principles and tells everyone he will stand from now on and still doesn't get signed after he went against what he said he stood for.

Kaepernick is no martyr. Kaepernick is an idiot.

<i>I don't think you should have any problem with people protesting and questioning law enforcement zmn that's going against the grain of what this country was supposedly founded on if we could only really get a movement that has the first amendment as deified as the 2nd this country would be better off.
-Green Jelly</i>

Like I said in my response to Black, nothing in our constitution says we (as individuals) have to accept or support what someone is protesting. Further, like I stated to Black, me throwing away my Nike stuff is my version of a protest but somehow that is frowned upon. Additionally, there is zero issue with people questioning the government and questioning law enforcement. Zero. Issue. With. That. However, Kaepernick and people like that are not going to gain my support with their protest when they take a sampling of a dozen or two instances of police misconduct and try to make that out to be a nationwide epidemic, of racist, brutal police officers. All while at the same time, wearing articles of clothing depicting police officers as pigs.

<i>What I don't like about these protests is that the message is about perceived racism from the police. It's a 2 way street and yes while you are going to find some Podunk cop here and there who is just flat out racist most of these issues arise from inner cities. The problem with that narrative is they are policing a community where day in a day out you are seeing the same shit over and over and it's hard to go well they are all aren't like that when that community shields the people who are like that. This is the argument that gets lost in the discourse and if you want to fix the root problem of all this deal with the absolute income inequalities that exist. It's just a byproduct of what you have to deal with deal day in and day out if all you see every day is the worst of humanity you start to get conceptualized views of a certain community. I've lived in urban areas with predominant minority populations and rural areas with predominant white ones and the issue with police always leads back to the poorer areas no matter what racial makeup.
-Green Jelly</i>

You bring up some good points and most of it I agree with. Areas that consist of lower socio-economic demographics (regardless of race) have a higher demand on law enforcement services than areas with higher economic demographics because less crime, specifically violent crime, take place in the higher income areas. (Law enforcement can't control where the demand comes from). When you have lower socio-economic areas that are predominantly made up of minorities they will by default have more interactions with the police. Again by default, the more interactions you have with police the more positive and negative interactions they will have with police as well.

Kneeling during the anthem was not against the rules. It kind of is and isn't now. The owners have a new policy in place but haven't started enforcing it due to ongoing talks with the NFLPA.

As for the protesting during company time. The anthem isn't the game. It wasn't against the rules to do it. Kap still went out there and played average football when he got to play

At the end of the day, the outrage against Kap is silly to say the least in my opinion. It's a non violent protest to begin with. And it was a veteran who told him to kneel while protesting in order to show respect for the flag but still bringing attention to the cause.

<i>Also protesting is a major pillar of our country, it what we built the foundation on, Protest and standing up to injustices. But these so-called patriots don't want people protesting jobs or country or any form of authority at all anymore. Which goes directly against what we should be doing, if there's a major problem we should bring light to it and try to fix it, not bury it and criticize the people who bring it up.
-Black</i>

Protesting is absolutely a major pillar of our country. I am choosing to protest Nike by throwing my stuff away, as I mentioned earlier. But I am also not doing that while on the clock for my employer. I am also doing it because I don't support what Kaepernick stands for, for all the reasons I have already mentioned. I believe in protesting injustices but I don't believe in or support protesting for the sake of protesting.

It also appears that you are implying that any form of authority is an injustice; that is a very scary mentality. As a police officer and as a husband to an elementary school teacher, I have a very good understanding of the importance of authority. Without it, we are doomed and that is just reality.

Lastly, you talk about major problems needing to be brought to light. I couldn't agree more with that belief. But Kaepernick was painting all law enforcement as brutal and racist and that is bullshit. Hell, if Kaepernick was protesting an incident that took place, a handful of incidents that took place, I might support it (even though I would never kneel for the anthem), but he took a few incidents and applied that to all of law enforcement and tried to paint a picture that there is a nationwide epidemic. Again, bullshit.

So anyone wanna sign up for FM?

Fitting that there'd be essays in the FM recruitment thread.

Hi.
Shut the fuck up!
Bye.

<i>What the NFL Game Operations Manual says about the anthem
The players do not receive the manual; policies in the manual are enforced by the teams. And the language about the anthem has not changed since 1978. (Perhaps it ought to now.)

The language in the manual is as follows: “The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. During the playing of the National Anthem, players on the field should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. Players in the bench areas should do the same, and should line themselves up evenly along the sidelines. The home team should insure that the American Flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
-Emp</i>

This is what I was going off of:

Page A62 of the NFL Game Operations Manual (Has not changed since 1978.)

"What the NFL Game Operations Manual says about the anthem:

The language in the manual is as follows: “The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. During the playing of the National Anthem, players on the field should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. Players in the bench areas should do the same, and should line themselves up evenly along the sidelines. The home team should insure that the American Flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.” "

Apparently this is referred to as a policy not a rule, but I think that is just splitting hairs.

To your point about the anthem not being game time, you are definitely reaching there. He is in their uniform, representing their team, taking part in a mandated part of the game, all of which he is required to do. As far as I am concerned, he is on their time. I never said he protested instead of playing, I said he protested on his employers time.

I am actually kind of offended you think the outrage against Kaepernick is silly. You and Black keep saying it is a non-violent protest as if that somehow makes the protest honorable. As I have repeated over and over again, his "cause" has to do with the false allegation that police in the United States are brutal and racist and during his protest he even wore socks depicting law enforcement as pigs. But ya, the outrage against Kaepernick is silly. Know what else is silly?

Encouraging the youth, specifically minority youth, to fear the police.
Encouraging the distrust of the police.
Encouraging the anti-police mentality.

Do you know how you do those three things? By alleging that there is a nationwide epidemic of police officers killing innocent minorities and leaving them in the street all the while being supported by an oppressive country and government.

Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.

I was thinking the same thing

"Save the essays for FM!"

You make it sound like a few dozen instances of police shooting unarmed civilians isn't a serious issue.

<i>Give. Me. A. Fucking. Break.</i>

It's extremely unfortunate that police as a whole get labeled racist because of a small percentage of pieces of shit.

Kap is a horrible messenger. He could have done a lot of things differently.

But there is a problem. He tried to use his position to bring attention to it.

So I do find it silly that certain parts of this country are more upset with how he protests than they are with the very serious issue he is protesting.

I think I have condemned the issues just as much as the next person. However, if you are implying that because someone is unarmed that automatically disqualifies the use of deadly force against them you are out of your mind. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnUYKFU0OqM - he is unarmed, therefore not a threat...right? ICYMI: he also bends over and tries to pull the firearm out of the officers holster. And ironically, he is wearing a Nike shirt). So I will rephrase what you said along with my response. I absolutely have condemned unjustified and even unnecessary police shootings and always will.

This is the issue I have with the argument. If someone wants to peacefully protest an unjustified shooting, by all means, I will join them with that. But don't turn a couple dozen instances of that into a national, profession wide issue. Also, it is unfair to law enforcement to protest the shooting before the facts even come to light. How many times have we seen that happen? Too many and it is unfortunate.

There are over 800,000 law enforcement officers in the US. Let's <i>conservatively</i> say that those 800,000 officers have 5 citizen interactions every day. That is 4 million police interactions with citizens....every single day. That is 120 million police interactions with citizens every month. We are then going to look at a couple <i>dozen</i> unjustified or questionable shootings that took place over how long....a year? two years? And then protest that this is an epidemic? That the problem is out of control? That all law enforcement is racist and brutal?

It drives my absolutely crazy when this narrative is supported and when the media and uninformed members of the community give this narrative credence. When this narrative is created, that police are evil, and racist and brutal, all it does is further hurt relationships between the police and the minority population - and not because of the police reaction.

As I mentioned above, this narrative:

Encourages the youth, specifically minority youth, to fear the police.
Encourages the distrust of the police.
Encourages the anti-police mentality.

What happens when people fear the police? Don't trust the police? Are anti-police?

What happens is people run from the police. People resist lawful detentions and arrest from the police. People refuse lawful orders. When that happens, police use of force is implemented only further escalating the situation; a situation that is EASILY preventable. And probably even worse, people do not cooperate with police as victims or witnesses of crimes and themselves and or their communities continue to be plagued with violent crime.

These protests based on over-exaggerated information hurt the people and communities they are claiming to help.

This is the reality.

Nobody in the NFL gives a shit if the players take a knee or not this isn't about that it's about our scatterbrained president going off on tangents about how unpatriotic it is because he needs a distraction to draw attention off whatever dipshit mess he made for himself that week. This only became this huge issue when Trump brought it up and Fox News ran with it and all the red blooded patriots threatened to stop watching and it hurt the NFL's bottom line. To think anyone in the NFL actually cares about patriotism other than from a financial perspective is asinine, hell if you could show the owners that having Tom Brady rip the wings off a bald eagle and eat them at the 50 yard line every game would increase revenues they would have him do that and have Buffalo Wild Wings sponsor it.

This is what I don't get why there is such an uproar about this when we literally had a muslim in the 90's refusing to stand for the anthem on the basis of what our flag stood for and there was nowhere near the outcry that this has generated. People on each side of the aisle really need to step back and wonder just what the fuck is wrong with this country that we are that polarized nowadays despite this country being far more prosperous for everyone than it has been at any point in history. And it's not the alt-left or alt-right it's the fucking media.

Turn on any 24/7 news network and it's not anywhere near like it was when I was growing up where it was mostly a solid block of just news then you would have one or two shows a night where it would be a political debate. Now it's get 3-4 people with one viewpoint and 1 person with an alternative viewpoint who happens to be a fucking nutjob and let them have at it. It's great for ratings but people are inherently stupid and easily guided if you sit there 3-4 hours even more a day watching that crap you start to think everyone on the side that doesn't represent you is a wackjob. Then you have the explosion of social networking and all the wonderful opportunities that brings to any idiot to allow their ideas to be disseminated. It's one of the rare things I actually agree with Trump on in principle, I don't think it's fake news I think it's barely news at all you can't find a story on any network that isn't absolutely dripping with a media bias to it and if shit continues this way this country is going to be a powderkeg of discontent. I'm going to do the whole Godwin's law thing but it's almost as if the media has a reverse Goebbels effect in that all these little bullshit lies they scatter upon truths are going to bite us in the ass some day. Gonna be pretty fucking sad in 500 years when some kid in China or whatever civilization is thriving is learning about how the Media Wars brought down the Great American Republic.

boy o boy #tamirrice

New kill macro, thanks Zmn

I'm sure I played with Sov on Martyr and they were a pretty good squad.

I think ZMN made me a star also, either that or the alcohol did, perhaps the latter.

it was the kilt

I'm not sure that Sov was ever on Martyr. Are you sure about that? I played roughly 7 seasons for Martyr and don't remember him on there. But I took a break from seasons 12-15 or so.

Trump and Fox News brainwashing the small-town impressionable folks.